'Our girls were murdered, we want to save others'
BBCAlice Ruggles and Holly Newton were both stalked and murdered by their ex-boyfriends. Their mums are hoping to stop it happening to other young women.
It's the first time they have ever met, but Sue Hills and Micala Trussler share a big hug.
Each understands more than anyone else what the other has been through.
Sue has driven a few hundred miles north from Leicestershire to a small village in Northumberland to meet Micala.
It is a journey she has made before. First to visit her daughter Alice Ruggles, who moved to Newcastle for university, then to see Alice's killer face justice at the city's crown court.
Alice was a bubbly 24-year-old woman who lived in a flat with her friend in Gateshead.
Family handoutHer murderer, Trimaan Dhillon, had been obsessed with Alice and stalked her for weeks after she ended their 10-month-long relationship in August 2016.
She broke up with him after discovering the serving soldier had been contacting other women on dating sites.
In October 2016, he broke into her flat and inflicted unsurvivable injuries on her with a carving knife.
So it was with a recurring sense of horror that, in January 2023, Sue heard about a 15-year-old girl being savagely attacked and killed by her 16-year-old ex-boyfriend in Hexham.
Holly Newton was stalked by Logan MacPhail through the town before he repeatedly stabbed her in an alley, just days after she had broken up with him.
Micala Trussler"When Holly died, I think it hit me more than any other case," Sue tells Holly's mother Micala shortly after they meet. "That horrible feeling of 'it's happened again'.
"We had tried to get into schools and educate people about it.
"It actually felt like we'd really failed because we hadn't managed to get through to the right school and the right people."
Sue and her husband Clive Ruggles set up the Alice Ruggles Trust, which delivers training in schools so young people can understand the dangers of stalking behaviour and what it can lead to.
Since Holly's death, Micala has set up the charity Holly's Hope which goes into schools to teach young people what healthy relationships look like.
Family handoutDespite the age difference between their two daughters and the passing of time, the mothers talk about the similarities in their two cases.
"Holly was so desperate to leave [MacPhail] but then obviously he would threaten to kill himself," Micala says. "Saying he 'couldn't live without her'.
"Then there was also a lot of love-bombing going on, [he'd say] well I can buy you pets, I'll buy you a kitten, I can get you a rabbit, I'll do this, I'll do that, I'll pay you, I'll pay you to stay with me.
"And obviously Holly was only 15 so she was very like 'I don't know what to do'."
Sue nods in understanding.
"Those were all the things that Dhillon did to Alice," Sue says. "And some of those were done when they were not in a relationship and it just seems to be that controlling behaviour, stalking, they just seem to fit in."
Micala TrusslerNeither mum thought the killers would go so far as to murder their daughters.
But both also agree Alice and Holly didn't really understand the severity of what was happening to them when they experienced controlling behaviour and stalking.
Dhillon would drive for hours from his army base in Scotland to Alice's home in Gateshead, where he would sit outside and sometimes leave unwanted gifts.
MacPhail wanted to know where Holly was at all times.
He didn't like her having other friends and the night before he murdered her he travelled about 40 miles by bus to her home and begged to be let in.
He also rang Holly upwards of 30 times the day he killed her.
'They were being nice'
Sue says: "Alice didn't see it as a crime.
"She called it stalking but she didn't know that stalking was illegal.
"She just saw it as a boyfriend who won't just go away."
Micala agrees, adding: "Exactly the same as Holly.
"She just wanted him to go away and couldn't understand why he wouldn't just leave her alone."
Sue tells Micala: "I read what you said about Holly and how she was just a nice person and she didn't want to be horrible to him.
"That was exactly the same as Alice.
"It seems like they were almost stalked because they were so nice, it just felt like the message never got through to 'go away and leave me alone'."
Sue wants the government to make education around stalking and controlling behaviours compulsory.
Family handoutMicala is calling for a law change in Holly's name so that people under the age of 16 can be classed as victims of domestic abuse.
Currently you must be 16, so Holly's death wasn't recognised as such.
A government spokesperson said it had a "clear mission" to halve violence against women and girls within a decade, with a "range of measures" introduced.
The spokesperson said: "We will continue to look at every option to fundamentally transform the system and respond to teenage relationship abuse – that includes everything from prevention to supporting victims to looking at whether we need to change the law."
Away from their campaigning, these are two mums having to come to terms with the devastating deaths of their daughters.
Micala asks Sue if it ever gets any better for her as a grieving mum.
Sue replies: "I think every milestone - just every time one of her friends hits it - it'll hit you again.
"So they'll be having their 18th birthday party and you'll be thinking it should be Holly's."
Micala already knows that feeling.
"Even now, two years on, I still hope that she'll just walk through the door," she says.
Again, Sue nods in agreement.